Mentorship in Medical Education

0:25 25 seconds So, thank you so much Mariah um for the opportunity to be with you and um I I 0:32 32 seconds know all of us are um really excited to to um have a conversation with with you. 0:38 38 seconds So please feel free to put any comments, questions in the chat or raise your hand. Um this is um something that can 0:47 47 seconds be stopped to entertain those comments and questions. So we'll get uh started uh JT with the next slide please. 0:58 58 seconds So, we're going to talk a little bit about mentorship um and the roles that may be used synonymously with the term, 1:06 1 minute, 6 seconds and you'll see why they're not exact synonyms. Um we're going to also talk about content and context in the 1:13 1 minute, 13 seconds mentorship relationship. This um photo is shown to 1:19 1 minute, 19 seconds remind me to mention that um many of us are both mentees and mentors and so as 1:26 1 minute, 26 seconds we're in those roles um and we touch others in those relationships we can have a ripple effect. Next slide. 1:37 1 minute, 37 seconds So first to think about um one can have a peer um mentor. So someone who is of 1:45 1 minute, 45 seconds similar background, similar academic rank or one can have a mentor who's more senior and more experienced. There can 1:53 1 minute, 53 seconds also be in addition to the individual mentor mentee relationship, there can be a a team of mentors. 2:01 2 minutes, 1 second So this I think helps us to distinguish the differences between these terms. A 2:07 2 minutes, 7 seconds mentor is someone who talks with you. So there's that conversation that's built between the mentee and the mentor. As 2:15 2 minutes, 15 seconds you establish goals, you get to know each other, you create career maps. A sponsor is someone who talks about you. 2:24 2 minutes, 24 seconds So usually this is a more senior person who's been experienced. Uh it may be at a national meeting where they've been on 2:31 2 minutes, 31 seconds a committee. They take the spons with them to meet the person at a national meeting and the sponsor is putting his 2:41 2 minutes, 41 seconds or her reputation on the line and saying, "I want you to meet this outstanding faculty member from VTCS 2:48 2 minutes, 48 seconds Soom who I think could become involved in our national organization." So, you're putting your reputation on the 2:56 2 minutes, 56 seconds line when you're talking about this person whom you are promoting. A mentor often is not known. Um, this is someone 3:04 3 minutes, 4 seconds who's in the background. They they can be both a sponsor and a mentor, but in the mentor role, you likely are not 3:11 3 minutes, 11 seconds going to know who a given individual um is has as his or her mentor. And then a coach talks to you. If you think of 3:20 3 minutes, 20 seconds sports teams and you can picture the coach, they're trying to identify your unique skill set. How does that fit with the team? And then they're talking to 3:29 3 minutes, 29 seconds you about improving that skill set about when is the opportune play to put you in. And then some other terms that are a 3:37 3 minutes, 37 seconds little more peripheral. A role model is someone whom you admire from a distance. 3:44 3 minutes, 44 seconds You see certain attributes that you would like to incorporate in your own um professional identity. And a cheerleader 3:51 3 minutes, 51 seconds is someone who is going to be an upbeat supporter regardless of um whatever blemishes you may have. Uh next slide. 4:02 4 minutes, 2 seconds So when we think about content and context, content is really the learning process. What goes on within that 4:11 4 minutes, 11 seconds relationship? It often uh is advice or guidance. 4:16 4 minutes, 16 seconds It also is important in professional socialization. So this may be when a a person joins 4:24 4 minutes, 24 seconds the institution they don't yet know the road maps and so the mentor's role is to 4:31 4 minutes, 31 seconds talk to them about the values the mission of the institution where is the priority focused of the institution in 4:40 4 minutes, 40 seconds any history. There also is important that they establish some networks and connections for the mentee. They're 4:48 4 minutes, 48 seconds involved in goal setting and skill development. And those skills can be across all of the domains of academic 4:55 4 minutes, 55 seconds medicine. So research, clinical expertise, scholarship related. There is a term where um if you're focused on a 5:05 5 minutes, 5 seconds single project so you may go to an expert ask them to mentor you around a single project or skill and that is 5:13 5 minutes, 13 seconds called focus mentoring. Next slide. 5:19 5 minutes, 19 seconds So the context and you can see there's some overlap here with content but the context is more about the relationship 5:26 5 minutes, 26 seconds process than the the meat of the conversation. So it is important with 5:34 5 minutes, 34 seconds communication and interpersonal interaction also motivation and inspiration and then the counseling role 5:41 5 minutes, 41 seconds of career advice personal professional life integration clarification of values 5:48 5 minutes, 48 seconds and again this could be in a focus not a long-term mentoring relationship. 5:55 5 minutes, 55 seconds Next slide. 5:58 5 minutes, 58 seconds So just a few tips for mentors and we're going to also have some tips for mentees. One needs to use active 6:05 6 minutes, 5 seconds listening skills and that could in uh include reflecting back. I hear you saying or what I take from this is this 6:13 6 minutes, 13 seconds is a real priority for you. Focus on the data that's not that is observed, not the personality of the mentee. So you 6:23 6 minutes, 23 seconds may find that a certain personality um is easier um to engage for you. You that 6:31 6 minutes, 31 seconds you need to be aware of that but then go beyond it. Well, what is the data telling you? If the person says that 6:37 6 minutes, 37 seconds their passion is for teaching and yet they're not spending any time there, that's maybe a mixed message. So you 6:46 6 minutes, 46 seconds want to look at the data and then help um orchestrate that. be a resource talking about the educational culture, 6:54 6 minutes, 54 seconds um what your recommendations are, how to navigate that. You want to be specific and timely in providing feedback. And 7:01 7 minutes, 1 second now this differs a bit from the cheerleader who's going to always be positive. So in providing feedback here, it needs to be very honest, realistic, 7:11 7 minutes, 11 seconds and practical. You want to suggest areas of the mente's passion should be an area of focus for scholarship 7:19 7 minutes, 19 seconds that it makes sense. If that's where they're spending their time, then encourage them to think about questions that could be asked and then scholarship could be generated. 7:29 7 minutes, 29 seconds You want to help sponsor the mentee in committee appointments, leadership roles. Those can be at the local level 7:36 7 minutes, 36 seconds as well as nationally. Encourage the mentee to be the driver of the interactions. 7:42 7 minutes, 42 seconds If if they're not, then it's totally your prescription of what they should do. Likely, they're not going to want to 7:49 7 minutes, 49 seconds take that medicine, so to speak. You want to be open to a team of mentors. 7:54 7 minutes, 54 seconds So, if the mentee says to you, I really appreciate your time that you've invested in me. I also want to bring someone else on. Um, don't be resistant 8:03 8 minutes, 3 seconds to that. Welcome that. uh together with the mentee develop specific next steps and task and when your next followup is going to be. Next slide. 8:16 8 minutes, 16 seconds So some tips for mentees. The mentee needs to drive the relationship. It is the mentees career. Include plenty of 8:24 8 minutes, 24 seconds time for reflection on recommendation from your mentor mentors. And I think this is really important. um you're 8:32 8 minutes, 32 seconds likely going to be receiving a lot of input and so block out a time following the the time with the mentor to say what 8:41 8 minutes, 41 seconds did I learn from that what can I jump on and immediately implement what do I have to think about if that's really the best 8:49 8 minutes, 49 seconds recommendation for me be honest and realistic about your interest and that you need to share 8:56 8 minutes, 56 seconds honestly with the mentor and also that includes is this practical for you. Can you manage this amount of time? 9:05 9 minutes, 5 seconds Seek feedback from the mentor and be willing to share feedback to the mentor such as it was particularly helpful to 9:12 9 minutes, 12 seconds me when you suggested I speak with our librarians about um looking at the literature to start my scholarship 9:21 9 minutes, 21 seconds project. Be prepared for meetings. Do the homework prior to your mentorship meetings and then consider a team of mentors. Next slide. 9:34 9 minutes, 34 seconds So for both content and context, values are absolutely essential. And so you 9:42 9 minutes, 42 seconds want to establish alignment of the mentee and the mentor's values. These don't have to be identical, but it's 9:50 9 minutes, 50 seconds helpful if you can come to common values, and that really creates a more robust conversation and more productive 9:57 9 minutes, 57 seconds conversation. You also need to examine the institution's values and how do your individuals values mesh with those. Next slide. 10:09 10 minutes, 9 seconds And in this slide, um these these slides will be available to you. So it's it's not meant that you have to quickly scribble, but I think it's important to show some of the categories of values. 10:21 10 minutes, 21 seconds And I would encourage each of us to look at the major categories of integrity, feelings, achievement, intelligence, 10:30 10 minutes, 30 seconds spirituality, creativity, freedom, courage, order, enjoyment, and presence. 10:37 10 minutes, 37 seconds And think about within these categories which of these values most resonate with 10:44 10 minutes, 44 seconds you. And in this particular activity, it was suggested that you select five. I would also encourage you to revisit 10:52 10 minutes, 52 seconds these. So maybe it's at the beginning of the academic year that you pull these out. Are these still the values that are 11:00 11 minutes most important to me? Or maybe it's at the beginning of the calendar year. So um just the the importance of values to 11:10 11 minutes, 10 seconds un understanding your own values bringing those to the mentoring relationship u can be very helpful. Next slide. 11:20 11 minutes, 20 seconds And then there have to be benefits to a mentoring relationship or otherwise um 11:28 11 minutes, 28 seconds it it wouldn't date back to the time of the Odyssey which many of you likely saw where mentor was mentioned as he was the 11:38 11 minutes, 38 seconds guide for Tmacus um when Odysius was on his journeys. So there has to be benefit 11:44 11 minutes, 44 seconds for it to be sustained over time. So how does how does a relationship successful mentoring relationship benefit the 11:52 11 minutes, 52 seconds individual? Well, these this has been studied um consistently. It's shown that 11:59 11 minutes, 59 seconds uh scholarly activity increases. There's improved expertise and skill development. 12:05 12 minutes, 5 seconds There's facilitated career advancement and that can be academic promotions, salary increases. There's improved 12:14 12 minutes, 14 seconds professional satisfaction and expanded professional networks to the individual. 12:19 12 minutes, 19 seconds And next slide shows the benefits to the institution. 12:25 12 minutes, 25 seconds We can go to the next slide. There we are. And the benefits to the institution uh is improved organizational performance with robust mentoring. 12:34 12 minutes, 34 seconds There's improved satisfaction and retention of faculty. I would also as mentioned say that recruitment if um 12:42 12 minutes, 42 seconds individuals coming to look at an institution realize that they're mentoring programs and there's demonstrated success that can help with 12:50 12 minutes, 50 seconds recruitment. There's improved organizational culture and then recognition of the institution for successful promotions builds one's 12:59 12 minutes, 59 seconds national reputation and then it also can be very helpful in on boarding and creating leadership development with succession planning. 13:10 13 minutes, 10 seconds Next slide. 13:14 13 minutes, 14 seconds So I show this um which is a poster that we presented um this particular poster and some other permutations um at the 13:23 13 minutes, 23 seconds AAMC's annual meeting um several years running that describes the mentorship 13:30 13 minutes, 30 seconds matters program which we started um over five years ago for the department of 13:35 13 minutes, 35 seconds medicine and so I show it as um what I think is important in the concept of making it count twice. So if you're 13:44 13 minutes, 44 seconds doing that activity, can you write about it? Can you can you turn what your novel activity is into scholarship? And this 13:53 13 minutes, 53 seconds really is one of the important roles of the the mentor and the relationship is 14:00 14 minutes is to get the mentee involved in something that he or she is passionate about. Um, and then I think the next one 14:09 14 minutes, 9 seconds I did want to mention, and Sarah just put this in the chat, that in addition to making it count twice, maybe we made 14:16 14 minutes, 16 seconds it count another time, and that this was um, published in the literature as well. 14:21 14 minutes, 21 seconds And she has put that in the chat. Um, so I think that's our last I think the next slide is just the question slide. 14:29 14 minutes, 29 seconds Um, so I'll pause and I guess there are few things that are popping in the chat. 14:35 14 minutes, 35 seconds Um nothing that has to be addressed um right now, but I do want to open up for 14:42 14 minutes, 42 seconds just a brief conversation. Any questions um related to what's been shared at this point 14:55 14 minutes, 55 seconds and like Dr. Paul Oh, it's just Mariah. 14:58 14 minutes, 58 seconds Sorry. I was gonna say like Dr. for Paulie mentioned. You can um feel free to put your questions in the chat and I can read them out or feel free to unmute or raise your hand and we can we can 15:07 15 minutes, 7 seconds address them here or we can wait to the end if folks want to hold them as well. 15:22 15 minutes, 22 seconds All right. Well, if there are no questions yet from the audience, um I do have a couple of questions for our group of presenters. So fantastic overview Dr. 15:31 15 minutes, 31 seconds Pauly. Thank you so much. You shared some really great tips for mentors and mentees. Um it was a fantastic overview 15:38 15 minutes, 38 seconds of the the benefits and then also the the highlighting of the importance um of the alignment of values I think is really critical for mentor mentee 15:47 15 minutes, 47 seconds relationships. So let's jump into some questions for you all. So my first question is going to go to Dr. Holt Forest. I'm going to um ask you to 15:56 15 minutes, 56 seconds answer this one first. So, I know each of our presenters today has approached mentorship from a different perspective 16:03 16 minutes, 3 seconds um through a departmental faculty mentorship program, an institutionwide mentoring initiative um and then also mentoring medical students and 16:11 16 minutes, 11 seconds residents. So, Dr. Holt Forest, how has your experience shaped your view of effective mentorship and how has your 16:19 16 minutes, 19 seconds role as a mentor evolved across different learner groups? 16:25 16 minutes, 25 seconds So, oh JT if we could could we um unpin Dr. 16:28 16 minutes, 28 seconds Pauly so we could see Dr. Halt Forest and I think we can stop this slide share too. 16:39 16 minutes, 39 seconds Yep. Be great. 16:42 16 minutes, 42 seconds Hello. So, what I've come to appreciate about mentoring is the the component of psychological safety that is so essential to any relationship regardless 16:51 16 minutes, 51 seconds of where you are along your your timeline as a a student or a professional. the AB be the reason 16:59 16 minutes, 59 seconds psychological safety is so in um core to this these relationships is that you have to be willing to have difficult 17:07 17 minutes, 7 seconds conversations with somebody and allow for them to be authentic with you and tell you things sometimes you're not going to want to hear but need to hear 17:15 17 minutes, 15 seconds in the interest of getting yourself to that next stage however that um however that goal setting which is also core to the relationship has been established. 17:25 17 minutes, 25 seconds So, and no one um should put off having a mentor. Start as early as you can and 17:33 17 minutes, 33 seconds develop those relationships. Pe some mentors will come into your life as they say in at the adage for a reason or for 17:40 17 minutes, 40 seconds a season. But it's the the mentor relationship that you can establish for a a more longitudinal time where the 17:47 17 minutes, 47 seconds true growth can happen because they remember your your past and they are helping you build as you continue to move forward. So those are my initial thoughts. 18:01 18 minutes, 1 second Dr. 18:01 18 minutes, 1 second Paulie or Dr. Olandorf, would you like to add anything to that question? 18:05 18 minutes, 5 seconds Yeah, sure. I mean, agree the psychological safety is imperative. And just to sort of add on to something that Dr. Paulie mentioned, the best 18:13 18 minutes, 13 seconds description I've had around mentorship is that no one has one mentor. You have a board of directors. You have lots of mentors who fill different needs and at 18:20 18 minutes, 20 seconds different times and and sometimes different expertise. And I think as a mentor, it's fine for you to say, you know what, I'm not the best person to help you with that. Let's find someone 18:27 18 minutes, 27 seconds who can. Um, you know, unless you're that dynamic person who can figure every problem out, and none of us really are that. So, I think it's, you know, the 18:35 18 minutes, 35 seconds relationships, you know, it's good to have some consistency in the rel relationship, but it also can sort of be open-ended. Coaching is usually not open-ended. Coaching is usually very 18:43 18 minutes, 43 seconds specific and timelmited. mentoring is a little bit open-ended on purpose, but there also should be some, you know, um, 18:51 18 minutes, 51 seconds clear understanding from both mentor mentee what that cadence of meeting or what the expectations are both ways. Um, but yeah, I think I encourage a lot of 18:59 18 minutes, 59 seconds people and probably more as you get further in your career to have more mentors. I think as a student or resident, you might be fewer. Um, not not too surprisingly, but as you go into 19:08 19 minutes, 8 seconds practice or as you start developing new interest, it's not unusual to develop uh the board of directors, so to speak. 19:16 19 minutes, 16 seconds I guess my what I would um add is I was thinking about the assigned mentor mentee versus the selected and sometimes 19:25 19 minutes, 25 seconds the assigned um for logistical reasons is the way that it's it go is gone about so for instance um new residents are 19:34 19 minutes, 34 seconds coming in and rather we don't know of their interest necessarily and so they're assigned someone and this also 19:41 19 minutes, 41 seconds goes to what Dr. Olenorf was saying, well, that assigned mentor can certainly bring a certain amount of value and 19:50 19 minutes, 50 seconds guidance and wisdom to the situation, but there may be a different person who would be a better fit in a selected 19:58 19 minutes, 58 seconds manner. So, I think both have a place and often the assigned is is because of logistical reasons. 20:06 20 minutes, 6 seconds Yeah. And just to add on to that, I mean, I know some of our J programs, especially our residencies, will have first year adviserss, so they kind of 20:13 20 minutes, 13 seconds get the assigned person, then at, you know, later part of the first year, go pick your mentor. So now you've been here for nine months. You kind of know 20:21 20 minutes, 21 seconds who you relate to and vice versa. So it can kind of be a hybrid, too, because that, you know, I sometimes see assigned 20:27 20 minutes, 27 seconds mentorship sort of as mandated drug uh counseling. It doesn't really work unless both parties are into it. So, um, it's good to you could do both. 20:37 20 minutes, 37 seconds And that assigned mentor can sometimes be the person that helps you find somebody that's a better fit and and you can navigate that delicately in those conversations with that individual. 20:47 20 minutes, 47 seconds A great point. 20:49 20 minutes, 49 seconds Fantastic. Thanks for all sharing about your own experiences and and how um how um they've evolved your own perspectives. 20:57 20 minutes, 57 seconds So, Dr. Olandorf, this next question I'm going to ask you first. How do the goals of mentoring differ for learners, GME 21:06 21 minutes, 6 seconds learners, early career faculty, and more senior faculty? How should we how should mentors adapt their approach as mentees progress through these stages? 21:15 21 minutes, 15 seconds Yeah, I mean, I really think, you know, Dr. Paulie's intro really helped distinguish, you know, coaching versus mentoring. I'd also add advising. 21:24 21 minutes, 24 seconds advising is a very different relationship and we see that very in the GME space maybe less so um you know in the practice space unless you're on part 21:32 21 minutes, 32 seconds of peer review you'll sometimes be given adviserss in the peer review process um so I think a lot of it is knowing what your role is and what you're trying to 21:40 21 minutes, 40 seconds achieve um and I think you know our medical students are great examples they hopefully have a lot of people you know they adviserss I know they start getting specialty adviserss later on as they 21:48 21 minutes, 48 seconds choose a specialty um I think knowing what your role is um and um really 21:56 21 minutes, 56 seconds talking with the mentee of what their goal is because this is really it's really about the mentee. It's not about the mentor in the end, right? So knowing what their goals are and it definitely 22:04 22 minutes, 4 seconds differs. you and me is very focused you know in my experience based on you know future planning career career choice but also if they're having a struggle you 22:13 22 minutes, 13 seconds know and how you can help them with that residents are sort of the same idea but they're looking now very more narrowly like okay I'm an obstatrician gynecologist do I want to be fellowship 22:21 22 minutes, 21 seconds trained do I want to be you know and a lot of it's just you know redirecting you know I spend most of my time you know you know coach I mean a lot of my 22:28 22 minutes, 28 seconds mentoring is coaching you I I do a lot of reflection hey what do you think what what matters to you because I think it's learning it's teaching them how to think 22:35 22 minutes, 35 seconds through difficult situations and I think they kind of it's a little bit of self soothing and a little self-efficacy built in. Faculty is a little bit different too because then you start 22:44 22 minutes, 44 seconds getting to these really difficult things like what do I niche into and you know they're just different complications when you're faculty there a lot more 22:51 22 minutes, 51 seconds things at play. you know, residency in medical school seem really hard, but in some ways there you have so much structure and we provide them with this 22:58 22 minutes, 58 seconds incredible amount of support and as you get out depending on what place you're in, both department, you know, institution, um that that support may be 23:08 23 minutes, 8 seconds different and it may be something you have to seek out more than is given to you. Um hopefully BTC is much better than that than some of my colleagues in other places, but they struggle. They 23:17 23 minutes, 17 seconds feel like they're on the island and like you never want to feel that way. So I think you know you sort of adapt the needs to what what is going on on the on 23:24 23 minutes, 24 seconds the surface but the needs are different I think and once again knowing your role um I wouldn't say stay in your lane because the lanes are you know sort of 23:32 23 minutes, 32 seconds dotted white line lanes you can shift from one lane to another without a problem um but it's um you know it's it 23:39 23 minutes, 39 seconds can be really tricky sometimes from my perspective one of the most 23:46 23 minutes, 46 seconds important aspects in counseling coach ing advising faculty is to be intentional. And so by that I mean 23:55 23 minutes, 55 seconds you're even at day one you should be thinking of what is needed for promotion and be aware of the four buckets for 24:03 24 minutes, 3 seconds promotion and be intentional in accepting roles in those buckets and don't don't put 10 into the service 24:12 24 minutes, 12 seconds bucket of I'm going to be on five committees here and I'm going to be on two here and so be intentional to um 24:21 24 minutes, 21 seconds invest in that wisely. ly and this the same is true with really getting it how do you say no graciously thank you for 24:29 24 minutes, 29 seconds that advice I've already been asked to be involved in this so I think for my intentional plan to be promoted over 24:38 24 minutes, 38 seconds five six seven years I need to do this next so helping them see that helping 24:43 24 minutes, 43 seconds them feel empowered um to say no I would add when uh working with medical 24:53 24 minutes, 53 seconds students um in particular comes to mind the when it goal setting is incredibly important and in the relationship but 25:00 25 minutes sometimes the the goals will be very pointed and very specific helping the helping the learner to kind of expand out their aperture open it up to 25:09 25 minutes, 9 seconds additional ideas. So yes, you want to pass your step exams. Yes, you want to match in a residency, but let's let's broaden that out um some to to how you can be a system citizen in this work. 25:20 25 minutes, 20 seconds How you can be a scientist physician in this work. Let's um discuss those goals from a meta perspective as we uh as we 25:28 25 minutes, 28 seconds seek to achieve those more very pinpointed goals as well. 25:35 25 minutes, 35 seconds All right. Um this next question I'm going to ask Dr. Paulie to answer first. 25:40 25 minutes, 40 seconds Um, what have you found to be the key ingredients of an effective early mentoring conversation and how do you revisit the goals and expectations as 25:48 25 minutes, 48 seconds the relationship evolves? And I know you guys have touched on those goals and expectations and how important they are, but I think you know just focusing on 25:56 25 minutes, 56 seconds you know those first conversations that you have with um with a mentee. 26:02 26 minutes, 2 seconds Um, great question. I think some of it is um allowing the mentee to realize and 26:10 26 minutes, 10 seconds to hear where their passion is. So I usually try to start with how are you spending your time, what what's allocate 26:18 26 minutes, 18 seconds allocated for each activity and then what would be an ideal allocation for you and get an idea of where their 26:26 26 minutes, 26 seconds passion is and let them voice that, hear that and create some direction. Um, I 26:34 26 minutes, 34 seconds would say in establishing the relationship, it's very helpful if there are few early wins in that. So, what I 26:42 26 minutes, 42 seconds mean by that is if you're hearing that they've started a project and they're thinking of how to implement it, how it 26:50 26 minutes, 50 seconds might be written up, how it might be presented, tell them some places where it could be presented, the the teach education poster session for instance. 27:00 27 minutes And then when they see that come to fruition and they've had some recognition and then some growth by 27:06 27 minutes, 6 seconds sharing their poster findings, that solidifies the relationship because you've in a tangent in a in a very um 27:15 27 minutes, 15 seconds transparent way have given them a a map to follow and they've been successful. 27:27 27 minutes, 27 seconds Yeah, I would add, you know, sometimes I just get very simple with faculty, especially junior faculties, like why did you take this job? Why are you in a 27:35 27 minutes, 35 seconds teaching position? What do you want to get out of it? And you start to really learn what they want to be. I want to be a great educator or I really want to get involved in scholarship or I really want 27:43 27 minutes, 43 seconds to be involved um in committee work and really get into the nitty-gritty of how things operate. I go, well, great. Let's just work off of that. Right? Because everybody has a different goal. So, a 27:52 27 minutes, 52 seconds lot of it's goal matching. Sometimes it's a simple question like sometimes they don't really know what they want yet and that's fine too right it's like well let's explore try a couple of 27:59 27 minutes, 59 seconds different things you know do like low barrier things that you can get into and that are also short-lived that you can get out of so if you like it great if 28:07 28 minutes, 7 seconds not you can get out of it just so they can sort of explore because not everybody actually has that sort of identity of what they want to be yet and some do so it's good to kind of know 28:16 28 minutes, 16 seconds where they're starting at and then you provide them the resources or the guidance or whatever is needed to do that um and it's really different for 28:23 28 minutes, 23 seconds everybody and you know for some it's not promotion. Promotion is not their focus now. It might be later and we don't talk 28:30 28 minutes, 30 seconds about promotion. We talk about what do you like to do because promotion is really a reflection of doing things you want to do. Promotion is not the end goal per se. It's 28:39 28 minutes, 39 seconds recognition of the work that you do and sometimes that focus change like no I love doing this stuff. Oh and it can be promoted. Excellent. Um but they like 28:47 28 minutes, 47 seconds doing the stuff rather than being recognized. And I think I love those people the best because they're just doing what they love doing. Um, but I 28:54 28 minutes, 54 seconds think it's it's meeting people where they are, knowing where they're starting at. And over time it changes and that's great, too. I love seeing those pivots. 29:06 29 minutes, 6 seconds Oh, go ahead. 29:06 29 minutes, 6 seconds I was just going to say they they covered it all. I I I think one thing I will put an exclamation point on is th those open ended questions, the the 29:14 29 minutes, 14 seconds leave the floor open for them to fill the space and and share what previous mentors have said and how the progress they've made and in other relationships 29:23 29 minutes, 23 seconds and in their uh their council of supporters and and how um how you can build upon on that uh together. 29:33 29 minutes, 33 seconds Great. Awesome. 29:35 29 minutes, 35 seconds All right. So, we've actually moved through this content a little faster than I thought, so I'm going to add in another question. Sorry, guys. Um, and I did see some questions coming through 29:42 29 minutes, 42 seconds the chat, but I'll make sure to get to those as well. But, um, Dr. Paulie, in academic medicine, mentors often wear multiple hats. Um, they may supervise, 29:51 29 minutes, 51 seconds evaluate, coach, and advise. And you talked about this in your presentation. 29:55 29 minutes, 55 seconds How do you establish appropriate boundaries while maintaining that trust? 29:59 29 minutes, 59 seconds And how do you navigate situations where those roles may overlap? 30:04 30 minutes, 4 seconds Great. Thanks. Um, well, one place that I would start is I don't think someone's supervisor should be their sole mentor. 30:15 30 minutes, 15 seconds Um, and there's some debate of of whether they should be a true mentor or not. And the reason for that is the 30:24 30 minutes, 24 seconds supervisor, let's let's take a section chief, um has multiple puzzle pieces to 30:31 30 minutes, 31 seconds put together um focused on the teaching of the section, the clinical care, the the research in the section. And their 30:41 30 minutes, 41 seconds um vision may not focus on what's best for an individual mentee. They're going to 30:48 30 minutes, 48 seconds certainly want the mentee to succeed and do well within their structure of we're asked to have weekend clinics. And so 30:58 30 minutes, 58 seconds they're going to really have the the job of getting people into that um bucket. 31:04 31 minutes, 4 seconds And so they they don't have um the sole focus on the individual mentees career 31:12 31 minutes, 12 seconds path. In other words, it might not be the best for that mentee to do an extra clinic session for what they want to do 31:20 31 minutes, 20 seconds in their teaching world or their research world, but it's best for the section or division. And so the supervisor 31:27 31 minutes, 27 seconds can with um his or her wealth of experience in academic medicine guide, direct, help the mentee, but it should 31:36 31 minutes, 36 seconds not be the mentee's sole mentor. So that would be in a sense a little bit of a conflict of interest for that 31:43 31 minutes, 43 seconds individual. Um a time later when um the mentee has become more senior and is 31:51 31 minutes, 51 seconds more peer level with the supervisor, there could be um less dynamics of hierarchy in that conversation. 32:00 32 minutes So I I think that's that's one place I would just be cautious is um in the supervisor functioning as one's sole mentor. 32:12 32 minutes, 12 seconds Yeah. Yeah, I think that also manifests, you know, I'll speak more about GME and let Emily talk about me, but you know, in GME, you know, I have decided as a 32:21 32 minutes, 21 seconds leader as the DIIO that I will never be anyone's assigned mentor because I'm also the person that has to adjudicate dismissal. So, I mean, it just doesn't seem like right for me to do both jobs. 32:32 32 minutes, 32 seconds I'm also sort of like every resident's adviser. They'll always come to me with a question or that just be like a probably more of a coach than a mentor. 32:39 32 minutes, 39 seconds Um though over time I've definitely mentored residents even as a DIO but it never has been in a formal role or I always like Dr. Paulie suggested you 32:46 32 minutes, 46 seconds know have others. So I think that's really important. I think the other thing especially when you're in a faculty position and you have to um 32:54 32 minutes, 54 seconds evaluate residents or students it's a bit of an implicit bias you have to realize like I know more about this person. Am I being fair in my assessment 33:02 33 minutes, 2 seconds and not being overcritical or you know maybe more gentle because I know what's going on. So I really try to become, you know, sort of intentionally like, hey, 33:11 33 minutes, 11 seconds let me pull back as my mentor advisor or I've spoken to them about a difficult situation just to make sure when I'm making my evaluation in the clinical 33:19 33 minutes, 19 seconds space that I'm doing it in a fair way that's commensurate to any other learner that I don't know the details of. And I think I just have to be very attuned to 33:27 33 minutes, 27 seconds that and not to overreact or overcompensate in either direction. Um, but also just be aware that it's probably there because I just know more about them. And it does tend to taint 33:36 33 minutes, 36 seconds how you evaluate people. At least in my experience, I think it's very similar in the me experience. And I think when you end up 33:44 33 minutes, 44 seconds in a position where you do believe that that conflict of interest is present, then own it and and and declare it and 33:51 33 minutes, 51 seconds um and but be transparent with the learner along the way such that the two of you can try to maintain the 33:58 33 minutes, 58 seconds appropriate boundary in the relationship and so that it doesn't become an issue. 34:03 34 minutes, 3 seconds But it it's not um it's not bad if you've built such a rapport with a student that you're in a position to say, "Okay, now we've reached the 34:10 34 minutes, 10 seconds threshold where I'm going to do a conflict of interest because now I I want to be um authentic for both of us 34:17 34 minutes, 17 seconds in the grading space and and want to make sure that that we're careful there." So, great insights. Thank you all. All 34:26 34 minutes, 26 seconds right. So this last question that I have is um open for all of you to answer in whatever order that you choose. So if 34:33 34 minutes, 33 seconds every participant left today and intentionally change one thing about how they mentor or seek mentorship, what would you hope that one thing would be? 34:50 34 minutes, 50 seconds Go ahead, Rebecca. 34:52 34 minutes, 52 seconds Oh no, you go first. I was just going to say make sure that you absolutely do engage in mentoring. It's something 34:58 34 minutes, 58 seconds that's easy to put off because there medicine that is um full of free time 35:07 35 minutes, 7 seconds and so mentoring can be delayed or procrastinated. Please don't put it on your calendar um to to reach out to 35:14 35 minutes, 14 seconds somebody this week to get that relationship going and expand on relationships you maybe already have. 35:22 35 minutes, 22 seconds Great piece. 35:24 35 minutes, 24 seconds I I would say to to think about one's values. Um I I've not always thought of the values 35:32 35 minutes, 32 seconds piece within the mentoring context. So I think that can be somewhat of a new 35:39 35 minutes, 39 seconds concept. Um but with that have a reflective moment so that you are really 35:46 35 minutes, 46 seconds centering yourself on what is most important and then take that to the conversation and then also 35:54 35 minutes, 54 seconds have that exchange of values with your mentor and that solidifies the relationship. It really allows them to 36:01 36 minutes, 1 second see what motivates you, what drives you and then to provide better guidance with that knowledge. 36:09 36 minutes, 9 seconds Yeah, I mean we interact with so many people in academic medicine, you know, learners, colleagues, I think, you know, and we all sort of engage with them in 36:17 36 minutes, 17 seconds different ways, I think. And if you're going to go into a more formal relationship, I think, you know, going back to Dr. Pauliey's initial presentation, what is your role? Am I 36:25 36 minutes, 25 seconds going to be a mentor? Am I going to be a coach? Am I going to be a sponsor? Am I going to be a cheerleader? You know, am I going to be am I adviser for a student or a resident? And I think and kind of 36:34 36 minutes, 34 seconds stay in that role. And when you want to shift roles, and you can shift roles, make sure you're telling the mentee or the the person, you know, or the adisee or the coach that the role is changing. 36:43 36 minutes, 43 seconds So you both have the same expectation and you know what it's happening because is that mismatch of this is what you know the other person wants versus what 36:52 36 minutes, 52 seconds you think they're doing is that's when the relationships are not as fruitful as they could be. 36:59 36 minutes, 59 seconds Great. Thank you all. All right. So I do have a question from the chat. Um, so what has been your most meaningful 37:06 37 minutes, 6 seconds experience as a mentor? And what has been the most meaningful as a mentee? 37:11 37 minutes, 11 seconds What do you feel led to the depth and fulfillment of those experiences on each side of the mentoring coin? 37:21 37 minutes, 21 seconds I mean, I can start. Um, yeah. So, I've had this 20 plus yearear-old co-mentor relationship with one of my colleagues 37:30 37 minutes, 30 seconds in OB that we met at a national faculty development class and we've kept in touch. We're really good friends and you know this person's at a pretty high 37:38 37 minutes, 38 seconds level at her institution as well. And it's just the ability to sort of run things past each other and develop kept 37:47 37 minutes, 47 seconds that relationship going and we brought other people into that relationship actually and we sort of came to kind of like a group mentorship for for leaders 37:55 37 minutes, 55 seconds in obstetrics and gynecology. you just need a safe place to say, "Hey, what do I do here?" And it's just been this incredible exchange of values and 38:04 38 minutes, 4 seconds thoughts and um and as we both sort of changed roles over time, it's just been a really great source of support as 38:11 38 minutes, 11 seconds well. And and we both know like, oh yeah, we co-mentor each other all the time. We talk about it at national meetings like, oh, it's me and Gaba, you know, co-mentoring each other. It's it's 38:18 38 minutes, 18 seconds at least in our in our professional world, it's well known. It's like, oh yeah, those two. And we've had other people. It's just been it's just been a great opportunity to learn from someone 38:27 38 minutes, 27 seconds who I totally respect and the fact that she actually respects my opinion. 38:31 38 minutes, 31 seconds Sometimes it's that, you know, that imposture syndrome like, "Wow, she really thinks I know what I'm talking about. This is great." Um, it kind of helps me well, too. But it's just that 38:39 38 minutes, 39 seconds it's been going on for so long and it's it's intermittent. It's when we need it. 38:42 38 minutes, 42 seconds Sometimes we talk a lot and there other times we pull back because we don't need things, but they're always there. Um, and it's a text and then a phone call away. 38:54 38 minutes, 54 seconds When I think about um a meaningful um relationship with a mentee, 39:02 39 minutes, 2 seconds um I I think of a a lot of them, but the one that I guess I want to share um is a 39:08 39 minutes, 8 seconds student who was was really struggling um to find his identity and to be successful in the approach. 39:19 39 minutes, 19 seconds And when he got it all together and really hit a home run, it was just so 39:27 39 minutes, 27 seconds refreshing and rewarding. And I had previously looked at my students who were high performers and thought of 39:36 39 minutes, 36 seconds their achievements and where they matched and what they did. And I still have contact with many of them now. And those had been sort of my high mark. But 39:45 39 minutes, 45 seconds when I reflect on it, it really was the student who was, you know, visibly to the world not going to get as far as 39:53 39 minutes, 53 seconds those high achievers. But seeing how it gel for him with a little bit of advice, instruction, direction, that probably is the most meaningful. 40:07 40 minutes, 7 seconds What comes to mind are uh can be boiled down to history and joy. um share having a history with a learner that you have 40:16 40 minutes, 16 seconds been supporting over time and that you can reflect on and then continue to build upon and into the future. Hearing 40:23 40 minutes, 23 seconds their updates and how they're doing it brings you so much joy. Um it it makes the very hard days worth it and um and 40:32 40 minutes, 32 seconds sustains and for me in being mentored by somebody I think it's the same history 40:39 40 minutes, 39 seconds and joy. So he my one of my mentors he understands my my professional journey my growth and how the challenges I've 40:47 40 minutes, 47 seconds experienced over time. He weigh has weighed in on multiple occasions to give me guidance that I can trust and and 40:54 40 minutes, 54 seconds really lean into and and build on and then iterate with him about. Um, and then when I have these these pivotal 41:02 41 minutes, 2 seconds moments, he's one of the people that I most eagerly want to share those successes with because I know that he's going to value it probably even more 41:11 41 minutes, 11 seconds than I do. And uh, and so history and joy. 41:16 41 minutes, 16 seconds Love that. Thank you, Dr. Hope Forest, for sharing. All right. Any additional questions for our our group here today? 41:23 41 minutes, 23 seconds Dr. Spanck. 41:26 41 minutes, 26 seconds Oh, yeah. Hi. Um, great points, great presentations. I wanted to get the panel's reaction to something slightly different. 41:36 41 minutes, 36 seconds Um, and it's about recognizing talent 41:42 41 minutes, 42 seconds within the various things that have been spoken about, mentoring, coaching, advising, sponsorship. 41:52 41 minutes, 52 seconds some of the most um fruitful 41:59 41 minutes, 59 seconds roles that I've played as a mentor has been a little bit akin to what Rebecca was talking about. 42:07 42 minutes, 7 seconds Recognizing talent when the particular person might not be aware of those talents and making suggestions which is 42:15 42 minutes, 15 seconds clearly different than coaching or uh and it brings together all these different facets where someone may not 42:24 42 minutes, 24 seconds have thought about themselves as a leader or as a scientist or whatever it may be. And just you're suggesting that 42:32 42 minutes, 32 seconds and then supporting that can lead to great successes. 42:37 42 minutes, 37 seconds and it requires transiting between all the roles. So I'm I'm just wondering if the anyone on the panel has thought 42:44 42 minutes, 44 seconds about that or experienced that or what some of the thoughts might be surrounding that less traditional view of um mentorship if you will. 42:58 42 minutes, 58 seconds Well, I I think a little bit about um when I was in the role of um division chief and it was a a moderate size 43:08 43 minutes, 8 seconds division um 30 so individuals and one of the things I did early on was meet 43:15 43 minutes, 15 seconds individually to hear about their passions. And so I knew that we were looking at needing to fill fill some re 43:24 43 minutes, 24 seconds associate residency program positions and we were also needing to have a clerkship director for the medical students. And so I wanted to hear the 43:33 43 minutes, 33 seconds passions and assess the talents of the individuals in those roles. So um you 43:41 43 minutes, 41 seconds know that was a a talent assessor role I guess but having them going back to what 43:47 43 minutes, 47 seconds is what was their passion and it was interesting because some at the beginning said oh I thought I always wanted to be involved in resident 43:55 43 minutes, 55 seconds teaching but then I had this experience with the medical students and now I've shifted so it got those folks to start 44:02 44 minutes, 2 seconds thinking about their activities and how it resonated with them and so I I I think maybe that gets a little bit to 44:10 44 minutes, 10 seconds your point of un understanding the individual and then having that individual realize where they wanted to put their time and energy. 44:21 44 minutes, 21 seconds Yeah. No, I agree, Rebecca. I mean, I think, you know, imposter syndrome is so ubiquitous, it's probably normal, right? 44:28 44 minutes, 28 seconds Um, and I think one of our goals as leaders, as mentors, is try to help sort of decrease that delta between what the 44:36 44 minutes, 36 seconds person thinks they can do and what they actually can do, which is usually a lot higher. So, I think you're talking about this interesting intersection, Paul, 44:44 44 minutes, 44 seconds between sponsorship and sort of advising to me, right? Because you want to be able to say you can do this, a little bit of cheerleading involved, too. So um 44:52 44 minutes, 52 seconds you I think that's where section sheets and chairs has had such a lovely opportunity because not only can they identify the need they can actually give them the time or the resources to do it. 45:00 45 minutes Um and that's such a powerful thing to do. And you I think it's also like you know leveling the leadership curve. I think a lot of people say oh you know 45:08 45 minutes, 8 seconds I'm not ready for that or I'm too young for that. I haven't been here long enough for that. I think we're really getting to a time in society where it's really your talents and your skills that dictate more than your time and rank. 45:19 45 minutes, 19 seconds And I think and let people understand that. And it's okay to fail. You know, you can apply for something nationally, locally. If you don't get it, don't 45:26 45 minutes, 26 seconds worry about it. You know, there's, you know, my dad's a corporate attorney and I would tell you what I've learned from him. It's not very medical, but you know, his best clients learn the most 45:34 45 minutes, 34 seconds from their big failures than they do from their successes. And some of his failures are multi-million dollars of losses. We don't do that on the medicine 45:41 45 minutes, 41 seconds side. But I think there's it's okay to to to reach for something and not get it. You'll learn a ton from it. And I think, you know, physicians are risk 45:49 45 minutes, 49 seconds averse. Obstatricians are incredibly riskaverse. So sometimes we have to realize like it's okay to be a little vulnerable in these circumstances with 45:57 45 minutes, 57 seconds the support and the mentorship and the guidance that we all can give. 46:03 46 minutes, 3 seconds I echo what they both said. I think working with medical students uh encouraging them to learn from their failures is one of the most fundamental 46:10 46 minutes, 10 seconds things that we can do. Yes, it's absolutely okay to make mistakes. Yes, if you underperformed on XYZ exam, that's okay. But what do you have to 46:19 46 minutes, 19 seconds learn from that? How can you build on that gap in knowledge? How can I work with you to identify the the means and the resources to help you learn from 46:28 46 minutes, 28 seconds this failure? Don't kick that can down the road. Let's let's tackle it um one piece at a time. 46:40 46 minutes, 40 seconds Thank you for the question, Dr. Skullik, and thank you all for for your responses as well. Any other questions for our panelists? 47:13 47 minutes, 13 seconds A thank you in the chat from Dean Lairman for your practical tips and sassy 47:23 47 minutes, 23 seconds and so by the sagaciousness we're actually going to be done 12 minutes early. 47:30 47 minutes, 30 seconds All right. Well, thank you all so much for your time and sharing your expertise and experiences um as it relates to mentorship. 47:38 47 minutes, 38 seconds Um so much uh practical wisdom has been shared. Um like Dean Lurman uh said uh you know don't delay your mentorship. Um 47:47 47 minutes, 47 seconds identify your values, reflect on them and bring that into the mentorship conversation and then also work to identify you know what role you really 47:54 47 minutes, 54 seconds want to hold in that those mentor mentee relationships. So fantastic um words of advice and um tips for entering into 48:02 48 minutes, 2 seconds mentorship moving forward. In the chat we've shared our CME link. So, if you'd like CM credit for this session or if you'd like just to provide feedback, um 48:11 48 minutes, 11 seconds please feel free to click on that link and do so for us there. And um if you have any questions or um would like to 48:19 48 minutes, 19 seconds reach out, please feel free to shoot us an email and um we can connect you with any of the presenters or you know help guide you in the right direction. So, 48:27 48 minutes, 27 seconds thank you all. Have a wonderful rest of the day and we hope to see you at another health professions educator series session in the future. 48:35 48 minutes, 35 seconds Bye all. Thank you to our presenters again. Thank you. Thanks everybody. It was great.